Happy Birthday Jen, Jen!!!! There is a true story of James Madison (essentially, the author of the Constitution) who was at the time a senator, confronting the rest of the senate on a matter of charity. The senate wanted to appropriate $15,000 to assist some refugees from another country, and Madison's response was something to the effect of 'I cannot place my finger on any article in the Constitution that empowers us to appropriate money for the purpose of benevolence.' Pretty powerful stuff coming from the dude who wrote it. Now fast forward to today when the vast majority of Federal spending is for "benevolence" (welfare, medicare, Social Security, medicaid......etc.) I put the word benevolence in quotes because they are actually doing more harm than good. The gov't delivers about 1 out of every 10 dollars allocated for a certain purpose, to that purpose. They are extremely inefficient, bureaucratic, and slow!!!!! The vast tendency of people who receive a hand out is to not work to get out of their situation. The gov't is literally incentivizing people to have a lack of initiative.
There's something so basic that Americans don't seem to understand. If the Gov't coercively takes your money it is the same as stealing.......yes even if it's for good purposes. If I mug a rich guy and use all his money to feed and clothe a homeless guy, I still committed a crime. I HAVE NO RIGHT TO HIS PROPERTY no matter what the perceived inequity is. It is the same for the Gov't and taxes that are coercively taken. The Constitution provides only for the levying of taxes in the form of a consumption tax, or in the time of war a temporary income tax, and that's it!!!!! No death tax, no income tax, no capital gains tax.......etc. And that would be the Common Good, the bad, and the ugly.
-Paul
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Your example of mugging a rich guy and giving to a poor guy seem to be very Marxist. I do not believe that we should be Marxist.
Maybe I simply want to know, "What do you think the Government should be doing?" From your perspective.
I view things from the perspective that there is no such thing as separation of Church and State, because the Church is not an institution, but the reconstitution of the people of God, who live in the area's that no one else wants to live, because we do not pursue to live "The American Dream", but rather we pursue the Cross of Christ, sometimes they can't go hand in hand.
So my perspective automatically makes the gospel social, wanting to redeem human lives, as well as systems, structures, etc.
I think that some of the idea's behind what you think are excellent, it seems sometimes to be a little harsh towards the poor, or those who "need to pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and get to work." I think that we all need to work, not too simply make money, which is important, but to participate in the ways of God reconciling humanity to himself, at least as Christians that what I think we do. That is fun stuff. Thanks.
Paul I am not harsh to the poor. In fact, I feel personally called to help the poor. That however is the key. I voluntarily, through no coercion feel it my duty to help others. Income Taxes are mandatory, and coercive, and I could argue very effectively that the gov't programs do not help the poor in any meaningful way You do not free one group by enslaving another group.
You are very right that it is the Church's role and responsibility to help the poor. Now the question is what do we mean by the word "help"? Does that mean throw them money blindly without any insight into their struggle? That 's what welfare does, and so you wind up with situations like, drug addicted parents spending their welfare check on their next fix while their children starve. Gov't hasn't the capacity to truly help the poor, and this is because of one simple reason. Most of the poor don't have an economic problem they have a spiritual problem that has manifested economically. This is not to say that the poor are ungodly, or heathen, or anything derogatory about their character. All throughout the Bible there is instruction on righteous ways to steward the resources the Lord has given you. If the poor are taught how to biblically steward those resources they would quickly begin to prosper. And by the way, money is probably one of the least important resources they have. The most important ones that will break the cycle of poverty are stewarding their talents and abilities. When they become what God has uniquely gifted them to become they will have abundance. We see in all the secular studies that people with a college education make over 1,000,000 dollars more over a lifetime than those without one. God's principles for success are universal!!!!!!
There is one implication that I want to ask you about in your post. Do you think that the "Cross of Christ" is self-imposed poverty? I know that the Bible says we must deny ourselves and take up our cross. But what if I want wealth, not because it's my dream for me, but because it's God's dream for me? What if the Lord wants me to steward tremendous resources, like Joseph, simply to direct them to help others, not to feed my flesh? What if the Lord wants to prosper me because He loves me, and wants me to pass the blessings on to others out of gratitude to Him?
Money is just a resource. I hope that you wouldn't think the laying down other resources as some kind of godly sacrifice. Should we lay down our intelligence, talents, creativity, relationships, education......etc in order to serve the Lord? They are blessings from him so we should steward them and use them for his glory.
"The Lord made me fast, and when I run I feel God's pleasure" - Chariots of Fire
Please write back and clarify.
-Paul
Hey Paul, thank you for clarification. I agree with you, but I think that we come from different vantage points as to what "helping" means. I think that "wealth" in the sense of our definitions, in terms of the wealthy is dangerous, but of course I need "money" to live. I have done more without money than with money. That is the great paradox of the gospel. When I made $70K a year, it was too much and for some reason it weighted me down. I of course believe that maybe that was MY OWN ISSUE :), but I think that we think God's blessings are in actuality simply my privelage by being someone who can write my own check, i.e. I can do and earn whatever I want, because I am smart enough, powerful enough, and clever enough.
In Scripture, Israel went into Exile (in my opinion) not because of some abstract concept of sin, but because they hoarded what God gave them. The prophets attempted to clarify that Israel was not participating with God's redemption, but looking for their own blessings, which will always turn in on itself, and end up sometimes drawing us out of communal living, which is always intended for the people of God. (that was a long sentence)
I believe we absolutely use our talents, gifts, abilities, anything that God has enabled us with, but I think it comes from the paradigm of, "Where and what is God doing?" instead of "God bless what I am doing."
In all reality, I agree with most of the premises of "limited government", but not for the sake of the wealthy, but for the sake of the poor.
Also, I believe my aim is not to amass wealth, nor is it to take a vow of poverty, for both are aescetic practices which don't accomplish really anything. (Colossians)
I am not a Republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative, socialist, Marxist, or any other term other than follower of Christ, who desparately wants to embody the incarnation of the gospel. (In whatever that looks like)
I think God calls us in many different ways, but I think that we all need to examine why I think and do what it is that I think and do.
By the way, I have always thought that you and your family have been an incredible blessing to Jay and his family. :) Talk soon.
That's good stuff Paul. I like your point at the end about making sure that our politics fit our spiritual convictions rather than the other way around or with some kind of disconnect. The reason I have no qualms with the Conservative label is because I believe that so much of conservative idealogy will produce a society that values many of the things that God values..........life, freedom, equal opportunities without favoritism........etc. I don't believe that the American form of gov't is or has ever been the perfect form of gov't on the earth, but I still believe that structurally it's the best one around still. The most important element of a good gov't is the people that are elected, and that is the biggest struggle right now in Washington. Washington is filled with corrupt career politicians who only want to protect their powerful position and don't really prioritize serving the people over everything, yet our country hasn't completely imploded. That, in and of itself, is a tremendous tribute to the strength of the governmental structures that the founders set up. They wisely had a great mistrust for any kind of consolidated powers without a check or balance.
Thanks also for the kind compliment about Jay and Robin. They are a great blessing to us as well.
I knew that we agreed on more than we had earlier thought. :) In my own journey, which took me to Libery University, as a political science major, the ideas of Republican Conservative politics, somehow got enmeshed with the call of the gospel, which I do not agree with. I think that the call of Jesus is more radical than "believe in Jesus and go to heaven." Or Jesus is simply a "moral example", I think Jesus offers his own politics, which is what John Howard Yoder has called The Politics of Jesus.(Another great theologian named N.T. Wright speaks and writes sbout the The quest for the historical Jesus, where he places Jesus within the confines of 1st Century Judaism, as the Climax of the Covenant with Israel.) This defines a lot of what I say and believe. Here is a quote which blew me away. "What the Apostle Paul thought God was going to do in the end of time for Israel, he did in the middle of time in Jesus of Nazareth." Therefore, the end of time is present in our lives; the past, present, and future have collided into our everyday living.
I think that we in the U.S. say we have "freedom", but in all actuality we are enslaved to so much, that we could never go backwards. Oil, entertainment, houses, cars, food, etc. etc...
That is why we sometimes need to step back and examine what holds us captive. Also, the nation of the U.S. while amazing and incredibly affluent will die off one day as other nations have. This does not mean I don't love the U.S., but it means that I believe in the reality of the kingdom of God, which is the only kingdom which will never die.
The system of checks and balances is probably the best system of government in the world; I totally agree. One side can keep accountable the other side.
Anyways, I love the dialogue, talk soon.
This is an interesting discussion. There are a few things that you write about that make me a little uneasy. I'm not sure what you exactly mean by the politics of Jesus. I agree that Jesus was revolutionary, and he wanted reform in the hearts of men and religious, and political institutions but the idea that he was "politically" motivated seems to cheapen what he did and how he did it.
To me, and this might be because of my cynicism in modern day politics, when someone is politically motivated it implies that they are motivated by popularity, or power or something base. Jesus was only motivated by one thing....LOVE. I think the distinction is similar to the one between a common politician and a statesman. Both are speaking for change in society, but one is motivated by selfishness and the other by the nobility of their cause.
More important than being an American citizen, I am a citizen of Heaven. As such, I have the duty and honor to represent The King, and the culture of the Kingdom of Heaven to all on earth that I come in contact with. Christians should do everything differently than the culture, and the quality of the difference should be obvious to the world. It should be like when Daniel, Shadrach, Mishach, and Abednego underwent testing from the king and stood out 10 times better than the Babylonian wisemen, and magicians. God's ways will produce heavenly fruit.
With that being said, I refer you back to the importance of the Preamble of the Constitution that says it was made to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity". The Gospel can operate to reform society more freely when Christians are allowed to express their faith freely. That is a right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States. It is universal in application, but preserves our ability as Christians, without bias towards anyone else, to do our best to influence the world. The problem is that so many christians are passive and haven't taken this incredible opportunity. Americans by and large have taken our freedom of religious expression for granted. If the American Church starts acting like it should, nothing on earth could stop the blessings. And by that I don't mean demanding special rights, or clobbering people over the head with preaching. I mean truly loving people, and truly helping people, and demonstrating our integrity, and character to support the power of the Gospel of the Kingdom. NOW THAT'S CHANGE!!!!!
In reference to what I mean by the Politics of Jesus is that everything in the 1st century was political. "Polis" meaning centered in the city, or body of citizens, i.e. kingdom of God. I think that everything we do today is political, but not in the political realm of how we structure politics. When the church feeds the poor, received the stranger, alien, foreigner, loves the downcast, proclaims freedom for those who have none, we are being political. That is mainly what I mean. That there is no split between politics and religion, it is impossible. (John Howard Yoder wrote a book entitled The Politics of Jesus in 1972, excellent book)
I also think that Jesus called the entire nation of Israel around himself; but a remnant of followers formed, but Jesus as the Word of God had formed Israel, as well as the rest of the world, so his call would go forth to Israel first, then the world.
There was no such thing as the duality of worlds which exist today in terms of "spiritual realities and physical realities", as defined today. I believe Jesus thought everything was spiritual as well as physical, in the sense of real.
Our Christendom model of Church I believe has domesticated the gospel, making it only spiritual, so therefore, I actually don't have to sell my possessions and give them to the poor; only for the sake of doing it, to see what holds us, what binds us captive.
I speak only from the perspective of knowing what holds me captive.
I can also sincerely understand why me saying "Politics" would make you uneasy, because Christianity has done some serious harm in the world, but that is the Christendom Christianity which I speak against. Constantine is not Lord, Jesus is; but that means that the State is not also, so Jesus has his own politik for bringing change. I believe it is what you speak about, but would define it differently. I love the stance against Christians being passive that you stated. I agree also that it is always heart change, but it is always social also, which is what you say in your blog posts.
From the sphere of U.S. politics I agree with humans having the complete freedom to proclaim the message of the gospel, it is liberating, but that means that we will also proclaim that it isn't only for America, but for the world. (The gospel that is!)
I liked your post, and appreciate you explaining a little more about what you mean by "political" and "politics". I still think there is a better way to describe the idea that all of our faith should lead us to works. Faith without works is truly dead.....or as Forest Gump might say 'Godly is as Godly does'. My discomfort comes from the fact that the word political has such a bad connotation it's easy to misunderstand the importance and truth of what you're getting at.
At the end of your post you write that the gospel is for the whole world. Here's a really awesome thing I learned recently from a Bill Johnson book (I think he's a Californian too). When the Lord prayed "deliver us from evil", the word evil has 3 different connotations. One means evil...........like sin. Another means pain...........like physical or emotional injury or sickness. And the last means poverty. The idea that the gospel of the kingdom is not only about sin, but a complete reversal of the effects of sin is powerful. God wants to recreate that Eden environment in all of our lives. An environment where there is not only no sin, but also no sickness, and no lack (abundance). In the New Testament it says we should be overflowing in resources for every good service......(not only financial, but all resources).
I think one has to be careful when talking about "taking up one's cross". Many have taken up crosses and burdens the Lord has never asked them to, for the best of reasons, only to find that it wasn't the Lord's cross. It was some self-imposed religious restriction. One example would be the miserable failure of religious celibacy as a requirement to join the ministry. I believe this burdensome, non-biblical requirement has opened the door to a lot of terrible sexual sins in denominations that believe that.
There are authentic crosses the Lord would have us take up, but poverty is not one of them. Poverty is a curse, not a blessing. Money is simply a neutral resource. It is neither intrisically good nor intrinsically bad. The balance of scripture speaks both well of money, and warns us of it. It is something that the Bible says we must manage correctly or it will rule over us. And if we manage it properly it says that the Lord will be able to trust us with the true riches of the Kingdom. As my pastor says, 'money is one of our least valuable resources, but we need to get it right, so the Lord can trust us to steward the true riches of the Kingdom.'
-Paul
I only have one thought, because it seems as though you are equating sin or evil with poverty. The cursing, blessing language I think needs clarification, maybe only because I am not sure what you mean? Sometimes people are in poverty, because of others' sins and evil, not their own, so maybe I am simply wanting a broader spectrum in terms what what you perceive "poverty", because I believe that Jesus was fairly poor, financially, yet without much money he accomplished some good things.
Suffering is a dynamic of life which we can not avoid, so I believe yes God is creating the renewal of all things, but that only comes through the pain and suffering, the participation with Christ's sufferings, not necessarily abundance, as in material wealth, but in community, with Christ as Lord. Revelation starts in the garden, but ends with a new city. Cities are places where people have the greatest needs, where God will "wipe away every tear".
I want to serve a God, not who takes away my pain, because it has never happened, but a God who is in the pain, creating for me a language of communication, lament, and rejoicing. Anyways, good conversation, talk soon.
Toil, and lack are most definitely among the curses from the Garden of Eden. "By the sweat of your brow will you toil.......etc." This of course doesn't mean that those who are experiencing poverty are necessarily sinful, although there are some that are, but all who are in poverty are experiencing one of the curses of Eden from which we have been redeemed. The full council of scripture reveals over and over that the Messiah, Jesus redeemed us from all those curses of Eden. That is why he died.
The Lord showed me an amazing parallel between the places where Jesus was wounded and bled in his suffering, and the curses of Eden. It literally reads like an itemized list.
Jesus bled from his head drops of blood in Gethsemane, and he resolved his struggle by saying not my will but thine. This reversed the sin of self-will by Adam.
Jesus bled on the crown of thorns upon his brow. This redeemed the curse of toil from Eden......"cursed is the ground....through painful toil you will eat of it.......It will produce thorns and thistles.....by the sweat of your brow you shall eat."
Jesus bled from his side. This redeemed the curse on women and strife-filled marriages since woman came from the side of man. Genesis 3:16
Jesus bled from his back with stripes. This redeemed us from the curse of sickness and disease. "By his stripes we are healed" Isaiah 53
Jesus bled on his clothes, was stripped of them and died completely naked, exposed yet unashamed. This redeemed us from shame, and the pattern of hiding started by Adam and Eve when their nakedness was exposed.
Jesus willingly laid his hands on the cross, and was nailed to it. This was a reversal of the actions of Adam and Eve when they willingly took the forbidden fruit with their hands.
The Bible never says that life will be a bowl of cherries. "Surely we will have troubles", and certain troubles do produce character and perseverance, but God doesn't want us to be unnecessarily bullied by the Devil either. He has given us authority over the aforementioned curses. After Jesus bled in all those places he said "it is finished" and he meant it!!!!
Bro, that was awesome!!
Thank you for that.
That last statement sounds very charismatic, "we have authority over the aforementioned curses.":) I think that we have authority as we participate with the sufferings of Christ, reconciling, and hopefully God will find me worthy to suffer with Christ, for the reconciliation of the world. (I think that is what Paul believed)
Also, I think that when Jesus said, "it is finished", it meant a lot, such as being the true human God intended for Adam, but now God intends for us to be like this human, Christ, "in everything". I am not the Messiah, but the Messiah has enabled me to walk with those who suffer, exhibiting God's love and redemption, and hopefully God's liberation, but it is not always a definite, the liberation that is. African Americans were in poverty as slaves, yet the curses were upon the slave owners, i.e. white, European land owners. (Sorry, Europe and the horrendous evils it has perpetuated, bothers me sometimes) Once again, that was an amazing illustration of the death of Jesus.
Good talking.
I love these conversations. I learn so much from your point of view, and learn so much about what I really think about certain issues. The simple task of articulating my thoughts has been very powerful for me.
I was reading in 2 Corinthians 4:8 this morning about Paul's sufferings. Like I said in my last comments there are sufferings that we will go through but if you look biblically, the sufferings that Paul went through and that Christians are supposed to face are sufferings of persecution, not sin, sickness, and lack. Sometimes they manifested into lack because the corrupt, powerful leaders imprisoned Paul and took away his resources or ability to get resources. In those times he relied heavily on his spiritual resources. A great example is when Paul and Silas were in jail and sang and praised. It caused them to be freed, and gave them the opportunity to save many in that jail. But it was not a curse that was still within his life. In his normal state of freedom he would "abound" as he said.
I believe with all my heart that Jesus died not only to save my spirit, but my soul, and my body. The struggle I am in is how to access that which has supernaturally been provided for me. Jesus was not wounded in all those places on his body without a purpose for each one. He allowed himself that suffering for a reason. I want to honor his sacrifice by receiving the fullness of what he purchased for me. If I walk defeated in sin, financially, emotionally, in health.......etc. I minimize the incredible, limitless deposit he has put in me. He suffered too much for me not to be victorious!!!!!!
One quick comment about the African American community since you mentioned it. I have such a heart to see them prosper. Most of the students I teach are African Americans and for some reason I identify with them more closely than I would have thought possible. Historically, there were a few very important political decisions that I believe re-enslaved many African Americans. As bad as the civil rights challenges were in the early to mid 1900's, they were a tight-knit community that had a lower divorce rate than the white people did, they saw education as a huge key to their success, and they began to create thriving, safe communities.....(early Harlem). As difficult and unfair as life was for them then, they somehow found the fortitude to begin to thrive in a hostile environment on their own. Unfortunately, when welfare, and other government programs came around all the momentum of independence stopped and many became enslaved again into a cycle of dependence.
That earlier generation had a sense of the great deposit within them, and overcame incredible circumstances. That latter generation even until now has been done a disservice by the "help" the government has tried to give them. I do what I can at school to give all my students the message of responsibility, and self-determination. These are two of the most important keys to success, and freedom.
Hey, also I want to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed this blogging. :)
I think that government entitlements were for a certain time period, mainly during WWII, but then should have been discontinued. FDR took this country out of the depression, but expanded the scope and size of the Federal Gov't, as did LBJ.
The Civil Rights Movement of the 1960's was opposed "overall" by the South, and LBJ even stated after he signed the Civil Rights Act, "Well, we have lost the South for two generations." (Or something to that manner)1964 was not that long ago. Also, one hundred years ago, who lived in the ghetto's of Europe?? They were placed there by those in power.
Look at my blog post called, "What Next?" I spoke of the fact that the ghettoization of African Americans is simply slavery repackaged, as was Nancy Reagan's "War on Drugs" in the 1980's. It was really the "War on the Poor", as Tupac sang about. I as an ex-police officer dealt with narcotics dealing. Some of the most honest people I knew were drug dealers.
I think that drug dealing is Capitalism at its finest. Providing a commodity to be traded, enabling people to pull themselves out of the ghetto's. I of course am being facetious, but this is what many think in the poorest area's. How does that change, so that people stop killing one another? Education is key, but not education the way that it is thought of, because it is too white-centered.
God is concerned with all of this and wants to redeem the structures, systems, in order to serve the needs of humans. That does not mean simply government, but mainly transforming Christians to once again be "Missional people". Our mission shapes our Ecclesiology, not the other way around. "The Transforming Ways"-Alan Hirsch, a South African Jewish believer, has started what people are calling a New Reformation.
The African-American community is still more tightly knit than white communities today. They had thriving communities, but as long as they bowed to the white man. Once they stepped out of line, they would be beaten back into submission. We need to accept the cultural differences of blacks and whites, without imposing our colonial practices onto our African-American brothers and sisters. We can learn a lot if we listen.
You are completely correct in so much of what you say, so I want you to know I agree that education is important. Not in the same way we have done education, because it does not fit any longer in our world. It fits into the world of suburbia, where people can go home and quietly study, producing a "puffed" up, ego-centered existence, you know, "I think therefore I am", what a crock.
I am grateful that people such as you and Jay are involved in the school system, working and doing what Christians should be doing. Thank you for doing that.
God bless.
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